This week we’re tackling a root cause of so many team problems: leaders relying on title instead of trust. In this episode, Heather Italiano joins me to break down John Maxwell’s Five Levels of Leadership and share a simple way to move from “they follow because they have to” to “they follow because they want to.”
This is people-first leadership. It’s also how you build a team that performs under pressure, handles conflict like adults, and doesn’t need you hovering to get results.
The Five Levels of Leadership in plain English
- Level 1 – Position: They follow because they have to.
- Level 2 – Permission: They follow because they want to. Relationship and trust live here.
- Level 3 – Production: They follow because you deliver results.
- Level 4 – People Development: They follow because of what you’ve done for them.
- Level 5 – Pinnacle: They follow because of who you are and what you stand for.
Three truths Heather emphasized:
- You are at different levels with different people on the same team.
- Climbing takes intention. Falling can happen fast when trust erodes.
- The higher you go, the greater the loyalty, output, and influence.
If you’re a first-time manager, start by asking: with each direct report, what level am I at today?
Why seasoned leaders get “stuck” at Level 1 with new people
You can be Level 3 or Level 4 with long-time team members and still get treated like Level 1 by new hires. That’s normal. Newer generations expect to feel known, heard, and developed. The fix is not a louder title. It’s consistent relationship work that earns permission quickly and keeps it.
This is the work that quietly prevents difficult employees, politics, and quiet quitting. It’s also how you fix a toxic culture.
A simple one-on-one framework to build trust fast: CARES
Heather’s practical framework for moving from Position to Permission:
- C – Concerns: What’s worrying them right now at work or home.
- A – Aspirations: Goals, growth interests, projects they want to try.
- R – Recognition: Milestones worth noticing.
- E – Energizers: Tasks, topics, and environments that light them up.
- S – Significance: Values and beliefs that guide their decisions.
Use CARES to shape your 1:1 agenda, then capture what you learn. Caring in your head isn’t enough. They must feel it in your actions.
Scripts you can use this week
- Level 1 to Level 2 (relationship):
“I want to lead in a way that helps you do your best work. What are you working toward this quarter, and what would support look like from me?” - Level 2 to Level 3 (results):
“Let’s align on what success looks like. By the end of this month, what outcomes prove we’re on track, and how will we measure them?” - Level 3 to Level 4 (development):
“What’s one skill you want to build in the next 90 days? Let’s design a small stretch assignment and a check-in rhythm.” - When you’ve slipped a level:
“I missed the mark last week and it hurt trust. Here’s what I’ll do differently. What do you need from me to move forward?”
These conversations demonstrate Coaching for Managers, How to Be a Better Manager, and How to Hold Employees Accountable without micromanaging.
The fast way leaders fall down the ladder
- Dodging hard news or pretending to have answers
- Letting standards slide for high producers
- Using meetings to perform, not to align
- Ignoring misalignment between what you say you value and what you reward
Vulnerability is not weakness. Saying “I don’t know yet, let’s figure it out together” protects trust and keeps you at Level 2 or higher.
Turn meetings into influence multipliers
Great managers don’t collect updates. They create alignment.
- Share context before decisions
- Clarify decision rights and next steps
- Capture one metric per person that signals progress
- Close with who will do what by when
That’s How to Lead Effective Team Meetings and How to Delegate while raising ownership.
The 15-minute manager plan
- Map your team to levels. Write each name inside the L1–L5 pyramid.
- Pick two people at Level 1 and run a CARES-focused 1:1 this week.
- Add one measurable outcome for each person with a two-week review.
- Build one development touchpoint for a Level 3 performer.
- Revisit the map monthly and adjust your approach.
Small moves, repeated, change Team Dynamics.
Key takeaways
Vulnerability plus standards is how you handle conflict and fix culture.
Title creates compliance. Relationships create commitment.
Use CARES to personalize 1:1s and move from Position to Permission.
Tie work to clear outcomes and measurements to solidify Level 3.
Develop people to earn lasting influence at Level 4 and beyond.
